I have an additional (and likely final) comment on the “radar vs. stealth” issue. The $1 billion per copy price tag on the B-2 was stunning, the most expensive aircraft ever built, designed to evade radar. It was developed in secret without public debate or input on the wisdom of the expenditure. This failure to develop a base of support likely did great harm to that very program. Recall President Carter cancelled the B-1B to controversy, a program which was later restored by his successor. (And which record has been less than stellar, indeed, the current SecDef has wanted to retire a goodly number.) Against that background, the Air Force initially asked for some 222 B-2s, if memory serves. Under President Bush (41), it got all of 22, a remarkable reduction, maybe even a rebuke. Recall, too, SecDef Cheney cancelled the Navy’s Stealth platform for among other reasons, cost. Thus one question of Stealth that remains, does (did) the benefit outweigh the formidable cost? A part of the answer lies in how stealthy Stealth really is, addressed in the previous entries on this issue.

anyone out there from CutBank AFS or Ophiem AFS?

Radar Tech at 666 AC&W Mt Tam `52 and `53.Flew the `connies` out of McClellan with the 4701/552 AEW&C until my discharge in June `55.As written in an old ASQ-38 TO at Keesler (1951), As I walk in the jungle with my scope in hand, I`m a mean M----- F-----, I`m a radar man!

In 1960,after tech school, My first assignment was 769th AC&Wsq at continential divide New Mexico. I arrived ready to do the job I had just been trained for and proceeded to report to the Squadron commander 2nd Lt Duluzio who was acting commander. He told me to check into all sections and then go to my work station. I went to my new work station only to find a civilian doing my job and he asked why I was even sent there and being a new guy I said who knows. I then went back to Lt. Duluzio and he said go to comm center and they will give you a new job,so I worked in there till Nov 1960 when they shipped me over seas to 734th AC&Wsq in North Africa.I also had a Msgt.Nells Sorrenson from the 769th that went to the 734th with me. We both spent a year at Site Y3 In Morroco.

Hi, fellow Radar Vets. I was stationed at Sault Ste. Marie AFS from 03/62 to 11/64. Lots of fun, lots of memories.

Was USAF from 12/58 thru 12/62 stationed at Hq 26th AD Hancock Field Syracuse NY and 914th AC&W Site, Armstrong Ontario 30th Air Division. Would like to locate friends from that era, specifically from the 914 1959-1960/ Have already located Harold Hicken my old boss and former room mate John Neeley. I would like to hear from others who served at Armstrong during that time frame. Cheers, Greg Clarke

MTR operator @ NY-o9 NIKE AJAX. Served at that site from Nov 1957 to 1959.

66th AAA MISSILE BATTALION NY-09 Kensico, NY

WAS A RADAR ORPERATOR FOR EIGHT YEARS AT SEVERAL RADAR SITES. ENJOYED SEEING SOME NAMES I HADN!T HEARD OF IN A LOT OF YEARS. LEO WILKINS

Another input for the `radar vs. Stealth` issue: `JORN assures early warning for Australia,` Feb. 29, 2000,By Michael Sinclair-Jones ... Australia is using a sophisticated new radar network that can detect stealth bombers, curb illegal immigration and spy on neighbouring nations from at least 3000 kilometres away. The $A1.8 billion Jindalee Operational Radar Network (JORN) has taken more than 30 years to complete but is now undergoing final trials. JORN is designed to monitor air and sea movements across 37,000km of largely unprotected coastline and 9 million square kilometres of ocean. It is being used to cast a security shield across Australia`s remote northern approaches without the high cost of maintaining constant maritime and air patrols. Jindalee over-the-horizon radar was used to track military aircraft landing and taking off from Dili Airport, in East Timor, on 20 September 1999, when Australia-led Interfet forces began securing the former Indonesian province from militia violence. Australian Hercules C130 transports were detected from 1500 kilometres away by a 6 kilometres-long radar array at Longreach (Queensland), and at a similar site at Alice Springs (Northern Territory). Aircraft images were displayed on radar consoles in Adelaide and Melbourne, 2600 kilometres from the action. Royal Australian Air Force commanders said the radar was accurate enough to show aircraft turning on their landing approach to Dili Airport … Stealth aircraft, such as the U.S. Nighthawk F117A, are designed with sharp leading edges and a flat belly to minimise reflections back towards conventional ground-based radars. However, Jindalee radar bounces down from the ionosphere onto upper surfaces that include radar-reflecting protrusions for a cockpit, engine housings and other equipment. Group Captain Hockings says stealth aircraft are coated with special radar absorbing material to avoid detection by conventional microwave radar. But the Jindalee radar uses high frequency radio waves, which have a much longer frequency than microwave radar. `Unless designed to be stealthy to both microwave and HF radars, (stealth) aircraft would not evade detection by JORN,` he said. … (The URL for this article follows: http://defence-data.com/features/fpage37.htm )

Interesting article that Gary Jacobs refers to. While this `JORN` radar system looks great on paper, and also in operation under nominal conditions, I suspect it is still vulnerable to jamming. Recall that for every measure, there is a counter-measure; for every counter-measure, there is a counter-counter-measure; and so on and so forth. (Also, it appears that Australia`s south shores are still open approaching aircraft.) Stealth technology works against traditional ground-based radars; it is not an absolute cure-all. It has long been known stealth does not work well against airborne radars that look down on relatively flat surfaces of airframes. Still, designers do the best they can with what they`ve got -- try as we humans may, we cannot reinvent the laws of physics.

Re the `JORN` radar system in Australia (begin with Gary Jacobs` entry, below), a web search found that this same system might undergo enhancements and then play a role in U.S. missile-defense surveillance. Here is what one article states: Australian Radar System May Have Key Role in Missile Defense Shield By Patrick Goodenough CNSNews.com Pacific Rim Bureau Chief February 24, 2004 Pacific Rim Bureau (CNSNews.com) - The Australian government is improving a sophisticated new radar system, with the goal of making it a key component in the ballistic missile defense shield being developed by the United States. Defense Minister Robert Hill said in Canberra Tuesday that, since it began operating last May, the Jindalee Over-the-Horizon Radar (JORN) had tracked hundreds of ships and airplanes up to 2,000 kilometers from Australia`s northern coastline, focusing on combating illegal immigration, smuggling and poaching. The planned enhancement to the Australian-pioneered system would give it even greater range, and `allow it to see much smaller objects such as missiles,` he said. The $48-million improvement to the JORN system will improve the sensors` sensitivity `and support further research on the capability to address ballistic missile threats.` Hill said U.S. officials visiting recently had given a vote of confidence in the JORN system, and it was also recognized that it could do much more than originally intended. JORN is based at Alice Springs in the remote center of the country and comprises a radar installation in Western Australia and another almost 2,300 kilometers away, in Queensland in the east. The world-leading system monitors air and sea movements across a vast expanse of coastline and ocean that would otherwise be impossible to police reliably. Australia last December became the first ally to commit itself publicly to the U.S. missile defense plan, which has drawn strong opposition from countries like China and Russia, and also does not have the support of Australia`s official opposition Labor Party. Hill told reporters after Tuesday`s announcement he could not understand why Labor leader Mark Latham would want to rule out taking part in a project that would protect Australia`s security interests in the future. He said a memorandum of understanding on Australia`s involvement in the missile defense umbrella would be finalized by the middle of the year. The Pentagon says the shield aims to protect the U.S. and its allies from a future missile attack launched by a rogue states or terrorist group, not a full-scale nuclear strike. The system is designed to intercept and destroy an incoming missile. Source: http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=%5CForeignBureaus%5Carchive%5C200402%5CFOR20040224b.html

One more comment on Australia`s `JORN` radar system -- for a few interesting photographs, go to http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1084299/posts?page=6 (scroll down).

Okay, now one *last* comment on the `JORN` radar system in Australia re U.S. missile-defense surveillance: U.S. And Australia Cooperate In Missile Detection The Missile Defense Agency (MDA) and the Australian Defence Science and Technology Organisation (DSTO) are involved in Project DUNDEE (Down Under Early Warning Experiment) a cooperative U.S. and Australia research and experimentation project using Australia`s Jindalee Over the Horizon radar to detect theater ballistic missiles. The aim of Project DUNDEE is to investigate the possibility of detecting missile launches in their `boost phase` immediately after launch. Over several weeks in September 1997, four `dummy` missiles, modified U.S. Terrier-Improved Orion ground-to-air missiles, without warheads, will be fired about 100 kilometers (about 60 miles) out to sea from a Defence Practice Area on the coast of northwest Australia between Broome and Port Hedland. Several sensors will be used to collect data on the firings, including the Jindalee over-the-horizon radar at Alice Springs. Mr. Ian McLachlan, Australian Minister for Defence, said Project DUNDEE will be an important contribution to research into defence against missiles such as the Scuds launched by Iraq against Israel and Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War. Early detection is important in developing defence against theater ballistic missiles which travel relatively short distances--typically 300-500 kilometers--and take only a short time to reach their targets. Project DUNDEE will also provide useful experience with advanced defense technologies applicable to both U.S. and Australian defense programs. Source: http://www.acq.osd.mil/bmdo/bmdolink/html/dndenews.html

My thanks to Bob Caggiano for pointing out how totally wrong I was about BMEWS not getting a mention on your site. I regret a dyslexic moment while reading the contents panel! Yours Aye Andrew Sellon.

794th AC&w Cape newenham 1956,57 all x cape vets go to www.msnusers.com/capenewenham and join over 95 members from all years at the Cape

i was at campion 1985, just visiting your web site

Enjoyed your site, although I was surprised that I found no trace of such topics as BMEWS or he projected `Over the Horizon` system constructed at Orfordness, Suffolk, by the US that failed to operate. I am lucky enough to live in the midst of where radar was developed, having seen Wason Watts origonal wooden radar tower at Orfordness, visited Bawdsey Manor where the early design team moved to from Orfordness, and live on the site of Martlesham Heath where much of the pre-war flying in connection with radar development was carried out. I would be interested to hear anything of the `Over the Horizon` radar project; I beleive the Orfordness project was code named Cobra Mist. Yours Aye Andrew Sellon East Anglia

20th SURS/MWS 67-70 (FPS-85), Det 2 5th TAC OL Kojin Korea DMZ 70-71 (TPS-44), 762nd ADG/Rdr Sq 72-74 (FPS 7B/107). AECP U Mass EE/Computer Systems 75-77 to 2LT, 20th MWS 77-81 radar programmer, Computer Acquisitions 81-85 Hanscom AFB, HQ TAC 85-87 JSTARS. Ret 87 for life Part 2- Sr Systems Engineer - Army training Systems requirements/ acquisition.

750th Radar Squadron 1961 - 1964 I t was great to look back and remember the good? times. We thought it was a prison when we were stationed there.

Once again it`s time for my semi-annual `search` (thanks to Radomes)for anyone who served in Germany, worked in the `Cave,` while being stationed at Ramstein AFB. We plotted air traffic manually until the new 412L semi-automatic sysytem was installed. I was in Germany from 1962 until 1966.(What a perfect time to be stationed in Europe!!) I never have located one person who served during those years operating 412L at the cave. I believe the cave was finally `closed` circa 1990. I served at Kirksville AFS, MO before Germany and Finland AFS, MN after Germany. Left the Air Force in 1967...now a long time ago.

I was in the US Air Force from March 7, 1955 untill April 17, 1963. During this time I served on four AC&W Sites. King Salmon,Alaska, Cape Newingham, Alaska, Driftwood Bay, Alaska(also known as COB-2 on the DEW line, and at Finley AFS, N.D. I also was with the 310TH Bomb Wing, Schilling AFB, Salina, KS. I would like to hear from anyonwe who served at any of these facilities or was in the Air Force during this period.

Was ADP tech, EMS 551st AEW&C Wing at Otis 65 - 67, 762nd RADRON, North Truro, MA BUIC II and BUIC III 67 - 69 and 795th RADRON, Cape Romanzof, AK 69 - 70. Was 305X1/3/4 (They just kept changing it.) Remainder of career in SAC and AFCC. ADC was always the best!

Was stationed at 915th AC&W Sqdn Sioux Lookout, On. Canada. `55 - `56 `59 -`62 when the Canadians took over the station. Was stationed at LaMacaza, Quebec, Canada `65 - `69 with the Det 2, 425 mum Sq with the 447 SAM Sq (Bomarc) Canadian base. Was stationed at 717thAC&W Sq Tatalina AFS `69 -70 All this was in Communications TTY, Telephone Swith- board and Crypto. Retired in `70. I have pictures of 915th in the Pinetree Site. From `55 - 03 Last of the base.

scaned your web page & it brought back a lot of memorys.i was a radar operator at 678 ac&w sq fl, 61-62 & 718 ac&w sq unalakleet ak 63 & 632 ac&w sq roanoke rapids nc 64 & 709 ac&w sq ft yukon ak 66-67 & 728 ac&w sq shaw afb sc 68-69.enjoyed checking out your site. keep up the good work. leo wilkins mailcarrier_2@yahoo.com

1962-1966 NORAD Direction center SAGE GFK SUX 4643rd and 4644th

My father-Jim White-was with the AF for 23 yrs; stationed far & wide, including 3 radar sites: Grand Forks, Wadena & Baudette. I am a USAF brat and PROUD OF IT!!! Thanks for the fabulous web-site!

Regarding the claims made for stealth technology, I’ve always wondered about them. See the “Radar Overview” section of this Web site, the “Range vs. Stealth” chapter. From that, “ … So, to decrease the detection range of the aircraft by a factor of 16, the designer/manufacturer has to decrease the reflectivity of the aircraft by a factor of 65,536, likely to be a really major effort … As a point of reference, the stealth fighter/bombers used in the Iraq conflict are said by TV documentaries to have the radar reflectivity -`cross-section`- of a pigeon. That seems an interesting accomplishment, as even one wheel of the aircraft must have a much larger radar cross-section than a pigeon.” The “invisible” claims made for stealth were overblown as the Air Force later acknowledged. No independent, unclassified tests were ever done to verify the supposed properties of stealth. Remember a Stealth fighter (is it really a fighter?) was shot down on a mission to Kosovo by a hardly sophisticated enemy.

Looking for Jim Trachta from Det 3, 4750th ABG West Berlin Germany and Randy Santo from Stephenville, Nfld. Anyone that might have their EMail address or any other information please pass it on.

Just finished watching a program on the History Channel entitled: `Modern Marvels---Stealth Technology.` It is a `must see` for all of us who operated and maintained the radar systems and programs of the 60`s, 70`s and 80`s. Be prepared to understand and appreciate that what we all did was not only a long, long time ago, but the technology that we all `mastered` is, by today`s standards, like comparing a Model T Ford to a Mercedes Benz!!

Wow! What a place to relive old memories! Thank you! However have a question. As I wonder all around and place my name at a radar site, I see I made errors! Is there a way to correct or does one reenter again having two enteries? Thank you. eddy

AFTER 24 YEARS AND 6 MONTHS AS A 27XXXX I DECEIDED I DIDN`T LIKT IT AND RETIRED HA! HA!

Served a 647th AC&W Sqdn Manassas, VA.1955. 4710th GOSqdn, Andrews Air Force Base, Maryland 1956. 7600 JUSMAG APO 283 and 3970th Combat Support Group

I was stationed at Point Arena in 1969 to 1970 then xferred to Fallon AFS until 1972

For Gale Osborne (below). Gale, your email address is broken. Please email me at the link in this entry. I`m a 786th vet who wants to contact you. Gene

Radar maintenance 30372, stationed at 752 Radar Sq Empire, MI, 645 Radar Sq Patrick AFB, FL, 754 Radar Sq Port Austin, MI and Hofn, Iceland and 615th AC&W Prum Germany 1956 - 1977

RETIRED: MSGT USAF STATIONED 786TH AC&W SQDN MINOT N.DAK 53-56 739TH AC&W SQDN WADENA MN 58-59 ADCC CLARK AFB 59-63 NKP 66-67 DROP ME A LINE.